How to Work with (Almost) Anyone with Michael Bungay Stanier - 90

Charles Good:
Well, welcome to this episode of the Good Leadership Podcast. I'm very glad to be joined today by Michael Bungay-Stanier, who helps people know they're awesome and that they are doing great. He's also the founder of Box of Crayons. He's the bestselling author of The Coaching Habit, the bestselling book on coaching in the last century, selling over a million and a half copies. In addition to that, he's a Rhodes Scholar, number one thought leader in coaching and has traveled the world. Right now, I think you're in Toronto, correct, Michael?

Michael Bungay Stanier:
I am, although this introduction is already leaving me feeling a bit intimidated about myself. I'm also just a normal guy who hangs out, reads books, plays ukulele, plays soccer badly. All of those are true about me as well.

Charles Good:
Wonderful. Well, thank you so much for joining me for the program today. We're going to be talking about your most recent bestselling book, how to work with almost anyone. And it really shows individuals how to build the best possible relationship with key people at work. And I guess my first question around this, Michael, is what got you to wanting to write this book? Why do you think this book is needed

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah,

Charles Good:
into corporate world?

Michael Bungay Stanier:
it's such a good question because honestly, writing a book is a pretty miserable experience for the most part. You know, you're like, you have an idea, you're not sure if it's a good idea, you write a first draft, the first draft is terrible, you write a second draft, the second draft is worse than the first draft. By the time you're at the fifth draft, it's a little better than the first draft, but you're like, I hate the idea, I hate myself, I hate this book. So you have to You have to really want to write a book to keep writing a book. Um, but I realized that, um, the coaching habit has been this book that's really succeeded, as you said, but that's got a real focus on what's the challenge for you, what's the work that needs to be done. And I realized when I thought about my own working relationships, actually, there was such a big determinant of my success and my happiness, not just my success at work, but just how I felt about my work. the company, the organization, you know, how I was showing up in the world. And there'd been a tool that I'd been using for 20 years or more now in terms of trying to optimize and give my relationships the best chance of success. I was like, that could be really helpful to teach people. And then the catalyst was actually being back in Australia a couple of years ago. And my dad was dying. He was at home. We knew he had a terminal illness. And of course it was a stressful time for mom and for dad. And for me, I was back home living in the family house at the time. And, um, I actually set up a conversation between my mom and my dad to have a talk about how they wanted to be with each other and what we knew were going to be the last weeks or months of my dad's life. And it was awkward and slightly weird and they were a bit resistant to it, but it was a really powerful moment for all of us. And. That kind of was the thing that pushed me over the edge and made me determined to say, look, this idea of a best possible relationship, of a keystone conversation, a conversation about how we work together rather than what are we working on? I think this could be really helpful in the world.

Charles Good:
That's so great to hear because I interview lots of authors and some worry about selling more books, which is great, but you really have the focus on the end user and trying to help them out. And you even state that in your book, that this book is a start of improving 10 million working relationships. And that's great to see and hear. And I think you're well on your way to doing that.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, you know, it's a, you know, partly this is just self management, Charles, because as I think about what gets me excited, trying to hustle people to buy a copy of my book is not that exciting for me. But trying to imagine the bigger picture, which is like if I can make people's working relationships better in their organizations that they feel happier and the organization is more successful, that's a much more motivating thing for me. So Um, this idea of how do we improve 10 million working relationships? 10 million is a lot of people, but it's also that's, that's within reach. I can, I can imagine how that could happen. So I've got my fingers crossed.

Charles Good:
It's great to have audacious goals like that. And

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Thanks.

Charles Good:
I love how you started the book, right? Everyone's success and happiness depends a lot on their working relationships. But the hard truth is most of us leave the health and fate of these relationships to chance. Why do you think that is?

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Well, because that's the easier thing to do and because that's what we've been taught and had role model for us. There's not a whole lot of precedence for people who are good at saying, hey, Charles, you and I are working together. Before we get into the work, let's actually talk about how you and I work together so we can bring out each other's best, we can avoid the awkward bits, the worst of who we are. We can figure out how to make it safe for both of us, but make it brave for both of us, vital for both of us, and make it repairable as well. There's just not a lot of precedent for that. And also Charles, it's like, it's a bit of a courageous act to actually say, let's talk about our relationship, because it's always easier to talk about the work. The work is always there. It's always urgent or important or critical or exciting or a crisis, whatever it is. It's so easy to plunge into the stuff that needs to get done, because nobody's got an empty inbox and an empty to-do list. Everybody's got stuff they want to get achieved. But to stop and go, hey, you and me, let's look at each other in the eye and remember that we're both humans and we're both trying to do the best we can between us. It's a challenge. I'm not unaware that this is not an easy thing for people. This actually is like, you know what? It takes a bit of courage to step up and do this.

Charles Good:
When you're right, it has been modeled much with people growing up, right? We kind of resigned to the fact that relationships are going to grow stale, they're going to get worse over time, and there's just not much we're going to do about it, nor are we going to take a very active role in improving that process.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah, and relationships are hard. I mean, think of that other person you're trying to build a working relationship with and they're this messy, confusing, irrational, non predictable kind of collection of stuff. And they're thinking exactly the same about you as well. You're also one of that. So just as in our life outside work that you know, some relationships flourish and some struggle. It's the same inside work as well. It takes some degree of emotional wisdom and self-awareness and some courage to say let's try and make our working relationships outstanding, the best possible working relationship.

Charles Good:
Well, and that's what the ideal is, is having these best possible relationships. And they really comprise of three qualities that you mentioned in the book, being, you know, having it be safe, vital, and repairable. All three are essential. Is there one that people should start with or is there one that's maybe a little bit more important than the others?

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Well, I think to answer your second question first, the one that matters most depends on the other person that you're building the relationship with. Because that's actually the point, which is like, you're not laying a template over a relationship. It's you and that other person going, how do we figure out what the best possible relationship is between you and me? And what's the mix of safe and vital and repairable that needs to really flourish? The first thing to say Charles is, you know, a best possible relationship doesn't necessarily mean a perfect relationship. It means that your working relationship with those other key people has a degree of potential. How do you fulfill as much of that potential as possible? So it means making the really good ones even brighter and shinier and more sparkly. It makes taking the ones that are in the middle and making them a little bit more magical. And really importantly, it takes the ones that are really hard at the moment and frustrating and irritating and it makes them bearable and makes them workable and makes them usable. So there's a kind of bell curve and you're trying to move everything to the right a little bit to make it a little more flourishing. But then to answer your question, sorry, you asked me which of the three is the right place to start. I think it's probably safe because that's the thing that most people have heard of, which is like the importance of psychological safety. Amy Edmondson, Harvard Business School professor, really popularized this idea. It's been backed up by research from Google and other companies. It's like, if you want something to flourish, people have to feel safe.

Charles Good:
And we'll get into that later in the interview kind of ways in which you can start the conversation to make them feel safe. But to build this best possible relationship, you really center on the keystone conversation.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah.

Charles Good:
And the keystone, I love that choice of words because the keystone on an

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Thank

Charles Good:
arch

Michael Bungay Stanier:
you.

Charles Good:
bears the weight, right?

Michael Bungay Stanier:
That's

Charles Good:
And

Michael Bungay Stanier:
right.

Charles Good:
it serves the same purpose in relationships.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah, like, it not only bears the weight, but it brings two separate things together, two different columns. And so the keystone sets the two things together. It makes it more stable. It makes it stronger. It bears the stress. But what was cool in terms of doing the research of this book is discovering that the keystone is not only an architectural metaphor, it's an ecological metaphor as well. There's this idea of the keystone species, which is a species that keeps an ecosystem healthy. The best story about that I know of is the introduction of gray wolves into Yellowstone National Park. They'd been hunted to extinction. It meant that elks were roaming free and kind of actually kind of eating the park bed and nuding the park. And when they reintroduced wolves, they shrunk the elk population, ate some of them, scared some of them away. It made the vegetation healthier, made the river healthier, and reintroduced a more diverse ecosystem. birds, more fish, more animals, it really made the place a better place by introducing walls. So whether you like buildings or whether you like outdoors, you can pick the one that works best for you.

Charles Good:
That's great. Love the approach that you've taken. In preparing for these conversations, you ask the individual to prepare by asking themselves five essential questions. So you're

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Mm.

Charles Good:
taking the same question-centric approach you took in the coaching habit.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
That's right.

Charles Good:
In this case, it's asking five questions. The amplify question, the steady question, the good-date question, bad-date question, and repair question. All five are great. Is there one that we should start with or advice around? that people kind of often overlook and really don't want to ask themselves.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Well, I think there's two different answers for you. In terms of the place to start, I think I've deliberately chosen the amplify question as the first question, because I think that is a really strong place to start. So the amplify question builds on things like appreciative inquiry and positive psychology. And it says, what's your best? This is a moment where you can explain to the other person, you think about it for yourself and get ready to tell the other person. When is it that you shine and when is it that you flow? And you know, when I was working through this, I was like, do I say, what are you good at? I'm like, that's okay, but it's not that helpful because I'm good at a whole bunch of things. A lot of them I don't actually ever wanna do again. I don't wanna tell you about what my strengths are because that's kind of interesting, but it's a bit abstract. I wanna tell you when you see me at my best, what's my best? And so the point of this question is to say to another person, look, this is when I light up, this is when I get good, this is when I'm in my sweet spot, this is when I'm playing to my strengths, this is the work I do, this is the type of working relationships I have, these are the inherent values and strengths that I pull upon to be me at my best. So if I had to just pick one question or if I had to start with one question, it would be that one, the amplify question. The question that I think we often avoid most, but I think is powerful because of that is the final question, the repair question. And the repair question is how will we fix it when things go wrong? And what's really powerful about this Charles is that it acknowledges that maybe things might go wrong because you know, spoiler alert, they always do. They always go wrong. The relationship always goes off the rails at some stage. And so what this question does is it says, Hey, it will go off the rails. What will it look like? How will we know? How will we fix it when things go wrong? But it's also doing a couple of things that's kind of an investment into the future. One is it's you're sharing a kind of shared commitment to fix it when things go wrong. That's kind of implicit in answering that question. And secondly, and this is really the kind of the hidden power, it gives you permission to talk about it when it goes wrong. I certainly, this is true for me. I've spent a lot of time watching relationships go off the rails and just not talking about it, just going, ah, I knew this would happen. Oh, well, I guess I just have to suffer now. And what this does is gives you some permission to sort of say, Hey, you know how we said, how will we fix it when things go wrong? I think this might be that moment. So how will we fix it now things have gone wrong?

Charles Good:
That's a great question to ask because you're right, not many people talk about it prior to it happening and then there's no plan, right, moving forward. And I love what you

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Right.

Charles Good:
state about the amplified question as well, is that curse of competence that you mentioned in the book,

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yes.

Charles Good:
a lot of times we talk about what we're good at, but really not fulfilled by, right?

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Right. Yeah, it becomes kind of like a slightly dispiriting job interview, which is like, tell me all the stuff you're good at. And you're like, OK, well, here I am. I can juggle. I can dance. I can swallow fire. I can, you know, dance with elephants. I don't know what it is. And you're like, I don't. It doesn't even matter what I'm good at. I want you to know what I'm what brings me alive, where you get the best of me. What is that? Because, you know, the curse of competence, I, you know, I'm in my fifties now and I'm like, I've just been around long enough to get half decent at a whole bunch of things. Most of which I'm not particularly, I'm not super competent at, and I'm certainly not, I don't find any joy in it, but I can do it if I have to. So this kind of sidesteps that trap of going, tell me all the stuff that you've got a certificate for.

Charles Good:
I like that distinction a lot. All these questions are really straightforward and powerful and they're easy enough to answer quickly but they also take some work as well. So

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah.

Charles Good:
it's important to put the time in upfront before you have the conversation so you're ready when you do because you have to lead in that conversation in the right way. And I love your approach. Reading a lot of books, I see a lot of people just kind of giving paragraphs of text and you're left to try to figure it out on your own. Whereas you give an instruction manual, and I think the game changer is you give scripts, and everyone

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Right.

Charles Good:
needs scripts to be able to put this into practice. I can't tell you the number of leaders I talk to that say, yeah, I know what to do. I just don't know how to do it, how to say it. If I just had

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Right.

Charles Good:
a script that would help me, I could put it into my own words, that would be hugely helpful. And I had Alyssa Kona on the podcast last year.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Oh

Charles Good:
She's

Michael Bungay Stanier:
yeah,

Charles Good:
great with that.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
she is.

Charles Good:
I love that approach and I think that really helps out leaders, especially leaders in having a conversation like this that might

Michael Bungay Stanier:
That's

Charles Good:
be

Michael Bungay Stanier:
true.

Charles Good:
difficult for them at first.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah, you know, Alyssa is brilliant at that. That's one of the things that she's so great at, which is like, let me give you the exact structure, the exact language you can use so you can do that. And this is a lesson I learned by writing The Coaching Habit. And I slightly stumbled into it. You know, The Coaching Habit... is a distillation of thousands and thousands of people I've trained and how to be more coach like if you're a regular manager or leader. I just realized that I'm trying to unweird coaching and so much of unweirding coaching is, let me just give you some words that you can use. If you follow this script, it's going to work most of the time. You're not blindly following the script. But just knowing what the next thing to say is can remove a lot of the anxiety you have around what might be an otherwise difficult conversation.

Charles Good:
Absolutely. So when you're starting these, make sure you first tell them what the conversation is about. You provide some great scripts in the book because to me, my mind would go to, okay, what's wrong, what happened,

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Exactly.

Charles Good:
we're in trouble, right?

Michael Bungay Stanier:
It comes back to what I was saying before, which is like, there's not a whole lot of precedent for this. So if you're the person who is brave enough to reach out and start this, everybody watching and listening, I hope you are that person because that is a great gift you're bringing to yourself and to the other person and to your team and to the relationship. But know that most people will be like, I'm not sure what this is about. You've got to calm them down a little bit. And I just try and use, I try not to overthink it. I try and use really simple words. I'm like, hey Charles, I'm excited to be working with you, but I want to make sure that we bring out the very best in each other when we work. And rather than missing this opportunity, I'd love to have a conversation about how we can be the best version of each other as we work on this thing together so that we just kick it out of the park.

Charles Good:
That's great. And putting it into your own words, making sure that happens. And these Keystone conversations work great with one disclaimer that you state in the book. And this is a text taken from Amanda Ripley is that in cases of high conflict, really, you know, probably not the best to have a Keystone conversation, but that's

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Mm.

Charles Good:
really the only context. A lot of them would benefit from having this type of conversation, correct?

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Well, you know, when you write a book, often what happens is you write a book, and then you spend a lot of time trying to figure out a really good title for the book, because people make that decision in a second or two. So you're trying to find a title where people go, oh, that sounds amazing. And you know, in the coaching habit, I kind of landed on a title that people go, I kind of get the problem and the solution in the same three words right away. So I'm like, great. But most of the time when you write a book, you spend a lot of time looking for the title. In this one, the title showed up in my head and I was like, how to work with almost anyone is a really good book title. Because almost everybody's got the same face you got at the moment, Charles, which is nodding and smiling and kind of laughing a bit. Because everyone's like, oh yeah, there's something about the almost that everybody goes, I can tell you who my almost people are. But here's what I think is liberating about this. I'm sure there are one or two or maybe three people that you work with where you're like, you know what, that's always gonna be hard. It's always gonna be a nightmare. I don't, it's not even worth trying. I'm like, fine, you know, there's, whether they're wired a certain way or whether they're a sociopath or who knows why they might be on that list. But that leaves everybody else. And I want you to think about all the people who's relationship with you has some impact on your success and your happiness. So this might be people you lead on your team, this might be your boss, this might be colleagues, this might be people you collaborate with, these might be people outside the organization, vendors, customers, prospects, anybody where you're like you know what if we had a better working relationship that would be beneficial to me then this book can help with that.

Charles Good:
Absolutely. And to start that conversation, you say, start safe. Someone always has to make the first move. You encourage that you make the first move. Don't wait for the other person and make sure they feel safe in starting it out. And also, you have a great tool here, which you also discuss in the coaching habit. It's the Terra Quotient to really use that to increase the Terra Quotient. Perhaps you can unpack that a little bit for our listeners so they feel safer in having this type of conversation.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
The Terra Quotient is really helpful because it explains the neuroscience of safety, the neuroscience of engagement. So here's where it starts Charles. Five times a second your brain is scanning the world at an unconscious level going is it safe here or is it dangerous? Safe or dangerous? Everybody who's listening to us now is doing this, you're doing this, I'm doing this, we're all doing this even as we speak. And it's not even a balanced question because the brain has learned from tens of thousands of years of evolution to say look, safe or dangerous. And by the way, at all costs, avoid danger. Cause if you don't avoid danger, you die. And your brain's only real job is to keep you alive so you can keep mating and you can keep passing along your DNA. So it's like, don't die. You know what? In terms of risk and reward, I will give up reward as long as I'm avoiding risk. So what that means is that people's brains are constantly on the outlook for any hint. of risk and a hint of danger and when they do they disengage. They back out, they don't lean in, they lean out. And so your job as a leader or as a manager or as a human is to be going how do I make this environment feel as safe as possible for as long as possible so people stay engaged as much as possible. And the Terra quotient T-E-R-A are the four drivers that drive the engagement, the neuroscience of engagement. So T-E-R-A stands for tribe, expectation, rank, and autonomy. Tribe, expectation, rank, and autonomy. Tribe, the brain is going, are you with me or are you against me? So it's about going, how do you find a way of making it feel collaborative? How do you make it feel like it's we rather than you versus me? And that can be everything from how you talk to how you sit. whether you touch them lightly on the shoulder, all of those things contribute to a sense of tribiness. The second driver is expectation and then the brain's going do I know the future or do I not know? You know just as with tribiness the more they feel like they're part of a tribe the safer they feel with expectation the more they can see a little bit into the future the safer they feel. So do they know what's about to happen? That's why It's a terrible idea to send somebody an email saying, can you come and see me in my office, please? It was like, what does that mean? What's happened? Everybody's brain goes to the worst possible place around that. Whereas if you go, hey, I'd love us a conversation about how we work together so we can bring out the very best in ourselves, that is actually pretty clear about what that's about. That's your raising expectation. Rank, a third of the factors, the brain is asking, Are you more or less important than me? And if they feel less important than you, they don't feel as safe. If they feel more or the same rank as you, then they do feel safe. So the more that you can raise their status in the conversation, the better. And then finally, autonomy, the brain is asking, do I have any say in this? Or are you making all the choices? So the more you can give people options and choices and kind of permission to make their own choices. the safer that they'll feel. That's one of the reasons why coaching is such a powerful management tool because when you ask a good coaching question, you're raising tribe and rank and autonomy, you're increasing the tarot quotient by staying curious longer.

Charles Good:
That's good to hear. So now you've started the conversation, the Keystone conversation, by going through these five questions. You've made them feel safe. You're getting to the middle part of this conversation. And as with the coaching habit, which I love, the mantra is stay curious a little bit longer and avoid rushing to giving action or to giving advice. Listen with intent and seek to understand before wanting to be understood.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah, that's perfectly said, Charles. For those who have read The Coaching Havard and those who haven't, one of your best friends in this moment is the question, and what else? Because, and what else recognizes that their first answer is not their only answer, not even their best answer. So when you ask a question like, you know, the amplify question, what's your best, when they tell you, you're like, that sounds amazing. What else? What else are you at your best? and they'll have something for you and then you're great what else what else brings out your best and when you're curious like that what you're doing is you're creating the space for them to keep telling you stuff that they may not even realize themselves but you're giving them the grace and the permission to actually go let me explore this as far as i can take it

Charles Good:
You're right. And before ending, you want to make sure you end on a high note, make sure that you acknowledge what worked for you, state it so that they know and that it strengthens the wiring in your brain like you state. And most importantly, which I love, because I got this from the guru of gratitude, Chester Eldwin, he was on the

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Oh,

Charles Good:
podcast

Michael Bungay Stanier:
it's so good, yeah.

Charles Good:
last month, is make sure you show appreciation.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah.

Charles Good:
No one gets enough appreciation. I don't think anyone comes home from work saying, you know what, to their loved ones, I was just too appreciated today at work.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah.

Charles Good:
It just doesn't happen. So make sure you show that appreciation for having that conversation. Correct.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah, I mean, both of those guests you mentioned, Alyssa Cohen and Chester Elton, both wonderful people. Chester is pretty much the nicest human being on the planet. You know, he always shows up wearing orange. He probably had orange glasses on and an orange shirt on. He's got that kind of his brand color. But he's such a genuinely decent, appreciative person. You're like, I love that man.

Charles Good:
That's wonderful, and yes, so this is a great conversation to have. End on that high note. And remember, these conversations, right, aren't a one and done. You need to stay committed after these

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah,

Charles Good:
conversations, correct?

Michael Bungay Stanier:
I think that's right. It'd be nice if they were one and done because they'd make it easier for everybody. But it's just like every relationship in your life. You don't have one check-in conversation and then go, good, we're set for the next 20 years. You need a constant process of maintenance of a process of making small adjustments when required, making big check-ins when required, making significant adjustments when required. There's a way that relationship vital and alive and adapting and growing and evolving. What's powerful in the Keystone conversation is you've given each other permission to keep talking about the health of the relationship, which allows you to keep maintaining the relationship now.

Charles Good:
You're right, and you give some principles in the book regarding maintenance. Perhaps you can unpack a few of those for our listeners to see what they can do to maintain these relationships once they've had that conversation.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
For sure. You know, I am going to just look that up.

Charles Good:
Let me, I can, so it's stay curious, stay vulnerable, stay kind, adjust always, repair often, and reset as needed.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Perfect. So let

Charles Good:
And

Michael Bungay Stanier:
me

Charles Good:
that's a

Michael Bungay Stanier:
do

Charles Good:
lot.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
it. Do you want to ask me the question again and I'll take

Charles Good:
Sure,

Michael Bungay Stanier:
it from the

Charles Good:
sure.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
top? Yeah. Perfect.

Charles Good:
So after we've had that keystone conversation,

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah.

Charles Good:
you mentioned in the book there's six principles of maintenance that

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah.

Charles Good:
really we should be mindful of to continue the relationship on good footing and to strengthen it over time and that's stay curious, stay vulnerable, stay kind, adjust

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah.

Charles Good:
always, repair often, and reset as needed.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah,

Charles Good:
Perhaps

Michael Bungay Stanier:
so...

Charles Good:
you want a deeper dive on one of those that you think is really a good place to start or...

Michael Bungay Stanier:
You can see that you've got two types of principles. The first is a kind of mindset, which is an open head, an open heart, and an open hand. When you stay curious, you're like, I'm still interested in you as a person. I haven't put you in a box. I'm interested in what matters to you. I'm interested in what you're up against. I'm interested in what you're struggling with. I'm interested in what you care about. I'm interested in us as a relationship. when you're staying vulnerable, it's like, and I'm willing to share as well. It's one of the key insights of this book, Charles Stegg, is like, it is about a give and a take. It's about an exchange that makes us so powerful. One of the guys that has been really influential in my writing of this book is called Peter Block. And Peter Block, he wrote a very big selling book called The Flawless He taught me this idea of social contracting, which is effectively what a keystone conversation is. I didn't love social contracting as a term because it's a bit cold, but what I like about contracting as an idea is a contract in law is an equal exchange of value. Staying vulnerable is like, not only am I curious about what you've got going on, but I'm going to tell you what's going on for me as well.

Charles Good:
Can you be over vulnerable? Can you overshare? I assume it's kind of like the Goldilocks principle, right? You don't want to overshare, but you don't want to undershare, correct?

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah, so, you know, Brené Brown is really clear on this. You know, she's championed vulnerability in a way that has made it kind of part of the mainstream, I think. But she doesn't say, so, vulnerability is having no boundaries and vulnerability is sharing everything and anything. She's very clear, which is like, vulnerability is about understanding what's the right amount of you to give up and show up around that. And Adam Grant's work on this is really supportive as well, you know, in Give and Take. It's like, the people who really flourish in an organization are people who are givers, but they know how to give in a way that doesn't deplete them. The people who struggle most in an organization are givers. They're the ones that give without boundaries and they are too vulnerable and too generous and actually just become depleted as a result of that. So when you're in the maintenance phase, this is the third phase, phase one, prepare. When you sit with the five questions and you kind of figure out your answers to them. And in the book is three exercises for every one of the five questions so that you can kind of refine and deepen your insight and language about how you might talk about yourself. Phase two is having the conversation just as you start, how to open, how to stay in the middle, how to finish on a high note. And then phase three is maintenance, which is how do we keep this going. And the one thing to say that we haven't quite touched on yet is you start maintenance by orientation. which is actually stepping back for a moment and going, what is going on here? What am I noticing? How do I get out of the hurly burly of the relationship in the moment? Step back, see the bigger picture, and then decide that you want to stay curious, stay vulnerable, stay kind, adjusting always, which is like you're constantly making kind of little things to kind of stay as sweet as possible. And then I think repairing often is the... fifth of the six principles, and that's the one I'd want to double click on. Right at the start of this conversation, you asked me which is the question that gets asked least often, and it's like the repair question, how will we fix it when things go wrong? This is a moment to say, look, you know, in writing this book, I did a lot of reading of the kind of experts in relationships, in the kind of romantic relationships, people like Esther Perrault and... Terry Real and Dan Siegel and others. And one of the things that became really clear is that relationships at last are ones that get repaired because every relationship gets dented and every relationship can get repaired. And also that most of us aren't that great at repairing relationships. So this fifth principle is repair often is to keep checking in and going, where are the dents, where are the cracks, where are the bangs? And... How do we fix it faster and sooner so that these things don't deepen and weaken the structure?

Charles Good:
Well, the one that really stood out to me as well is just to stay kind. It's really to assume positive intent and so

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah.

Charles Good:
often we don't assume positive intent. We have our own judgments, ideas of what they're thinking and really kind of looking at the negative rather than just assuming good things, right? And staying kind to themselves and to us as well.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
You know Charles, honestly so much of this work for me comes down to how do you keep staying human at work? And how do you keep recognising the other people as human at work? Recognising that work has a certain way of pulling you away from being human into being a task completing person. I'm like, be human. One of the ways to do that is to be kind.

Charles Good:
Absolutely. You mentioned something too that I like to kind of touch on now is that orient to what's going on and you have a great model by John Boyd in the book. He was an Air Force

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah.

Charles Good:
Colonel and it's observe, orient, decide and act because a lot of time when we're in the middle of conflict or just in a relationship that needs maintenance that we can't separate the facts from the opinions, from the feelings. It's really hard to do that.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah.

Charles Good:
But this model really puts it in the right context for us to kind of differentiate the three so we can see things clearly.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah, so he was an Air Force Colonel who became famous for A, being a pain in the neck. He never got promoted beyond Colonel because he was like, I don't care, but being a brilliant fighter pilot because he had this ability in the heat of battle to keep a cool head. When he was asked how to do it, he came up with this way of thinking, which is like, you orient, you find the best place to sit or stand or be, you observe, you notice what's going on, then you decide and then you act. But of course, part of the challenge is that we are flooded by all of the stuff that's going on in conflict. We've got feelings, that's making us filled with stuff. We've got judgments and opinions and interpretations of what's going on. And somewhere buried underneath all of this is the actual facts. And so the connection to Orion is to sort of go, what do you know to be true? What are the facts? What's amazing is there's always far fewer facts than you think there will be. And then you go, what are my opinions about all the facts? And you've got a ton of judgments and they come intermeshed with feelings as well. So if you can pull those apart. If you understand what the facts are, how you're feeling about the facts, what your judgments are about the facts and why that's influencing your feelings, you're going to have a cool head in terms of deciding what you want or what you need as the next step.

Charles Good:
Well, you're right. In the book, you mentioned that a way to differentiate is to use kind of that because when you say, I'm in big trouble and that's my judgment because the taxi isn't here, that's the data and the facts. And

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah.

Charles Good:
a great way to separate the two because in the heat of the moment, it's really hard to differentiate and you assume a lot of your opinions are actually facts when they're not.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
They sound, because they're in your head, and because you think I'm the smartest person I know, your judgments always sound like they're the truth. And in fact, they're not. They're just your momentary judgment.

Charles Good:
You're right. And there's a good way to have conflict too. I mean, not all conflict is bad. Some of it's healthy and you can fight with generosity and grace like you mentioned. Any tips that you can give the listeners of when they are in a fight, what can

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Oh.

Charles Good:
they do to really have the outcome be a little bit hopefully better than what it normally is or for them to feel better about the situation?

Michael Bungay Stanier:
You know, this is hard. It is a lot easier to talk about than to actually do, so let me just kind of acknowledge that from the top. But there's a way that you can understand that fighting conflict can really tear the fabric of a relationship. So... as you find yourself moving towards conflict and it'll happen in some form or another, whether it's a kind of quiet, passive, you know, under the radar conflict or whether it's kind of the noisy blow up thing. You know, in my past, I dated a woman who had Italian and Irish parents and so conflict for her was pretty animated. And I dated a woman who had Scottish parents so conflict there was pretty under the radar, barely even noticeable. So I've experienced it both in kind of my... my personal relationships. But I think it's trying to remember the bigger picture about what you're trying to achieve together. Trying to remember what you said when you answered the question, how will we fix it when things go wrong? Remembering to breathe and to adjust your body so that your body is as relaxed as possible rather than not because in so many ways your body leads your brain. So if you can put yourself in a place where you're like, I'm deliberately making my body feel relaxed, even though I'm honestly not relaxed right now, it will actually calm you down because your body is going, hey brain, look, I'm literally in a relaxed setting here. So you should be calmer about what's going on. And then this idea of... You know, so much Charles is practicing staying curious about the other person. If you're being curious about that other person, you're kind of out of your own stuff and over on the other side and going, what's going on for you there? And it doesn't mean that you give up all boundaries and it doesn't mean that you don't get asked for what you want or what you need. But so often if you can move from... angry and defiant and righteous to curious, that can be a way of shifting the tone of the argument that you're having.

Charles Good:
Definitely and I found that using eye language helps too so that

Michael Bungay Stanier:
For

Charles Good:
you're

Michael Bungay Stanier:
sure.

Charles Good:
avoiding accusing them of anything. It's I feel this way I understand it to be like this and like our you know mutual Fred Marshall Goldsmith told me it's Abandoning trying to prove your version of the truth, right? Just

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah,

Charles Good:
let it go

Michael Bungay Stanier:
let it go. That's a classic Marshall saying is like, let it go. You know, what really helps with conflict is if you know what outcome you want, what do you want or what do you need, so that you can ask for it. So often conflict like bad feedback is like, but what do you want? And if you can get clear on what you want. then you realize that a whole bunch of stuff you thought you had to communicate, you don't actually need to communicate because you really want to just get to know what you want. Even if what you want is, I just want to be heard. I just want you to know my version of the truth. I just want to be seen. That could be what you want.

Charles Good:
Well, that's great. So now, as we're moving kind of through this dynamic of this relationship and we've had the conflict, now we're at kind of the crossroads. And say in this case, we want to reset the relationship, which is in effect another Keystone conversation. And you mentioned if you want to do that, three things that you really need to do are stay compassionate, stay curious, and stay committed. If you could give us some more understanding on what are some of those best practices to do. to really reset it effectively.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah. It's hard to do that. When you get this, the sixth principle is reset as needed. And the first thing it does is to say possibly you don't reset, possibly this is the end of the arc and you're finishing up and you're completing this relationship together. And then there's a way of going how do we do that with a degree of as much grace as is possible and as much elegance as possible because we've all had that experience of somebody burning their bridges as they've departed and you're going all right that's the last we'll be talking. other people who've managed to go, look this is a hard departure but they left with some style and some grace and it's much easier to kind of rebuild with them later on. But you might go, you know what, we've got stale. This is the experience I've had with, recently I guess with a mastermind group I was in. We've been a group for 15 years and we had managed to stay fresh and by reinventing ourselves a number of times. When we didn't, and we had a moment of conflict within the group, the group broke apart. And it was like 15 years, just kind of crumbled in an instant, because we hadn't reset. So this idea of kind of comes back to what we're talking before, almost about being kind, which is like being compassionate is like, you know, seeing where the past has been seeing where the mistakes have been being willing to assume positive intent, being generous around that and re-engaging to say, okay, so you and me, we're a year or two years or five years older and wiser and uglier and we've got water under the bridge. So now what? Now how will we reinvent this relationship so it could be even better than it was before?

Charles Good:
That's great advice and I want to underscore the fact that in these conversations, nothing needs to be solved. You're just sharing information that's useful, true and heartfelt and listening with intent to seeking to understand because I think a lot of people need to feel like, okay, we've solved this, we can move on and that's really not

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah.

Charles Good:
the right focus to have, right?

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Well, it's not a bad idea just to hold lightly, which is like, I'd like an outcome of a successful thing, but there's a way that if you move into kind of rescue mode, which is like, I must fix this or else and it's down to me to fix it and I'm the one who's responsible for doing that, then that can set up another slightly dysfunctional dynamic in the relationship.

Charles Good:
That's good advice. What now if you determine that after the conflict or over time the relationship just needs to end? And the unknown can be the scariest thing. We tend to kind of catastrophize the worst, but I've noticed

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah.

Charles Good:
in some cases it's not as bad as what we were thinking of the end result.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Well, often, you know, if you're the, at the end point of somebody like firing you or letting you go for a lot of people, like this turns out to be one of the best things ever. You'll feel like I did not even know how much it sucked being in that job with that person in that moment and how much this next thing is better for me. So there's absolutely that. But I'm You can't really manage the outcome, but you can manage the process. So I'm like, how do you choose to depart? You can kind of sneak out the door and just vanish like a ghost and that could be the right thing to do. You could burn the bridges, burn the boats, go out and explosion of whatever. That could be the right thing to do. Often not, but it could be. Or you could find a way to be generous and appreciative and kind of thank and Recognize and speak to what you're taking away and what was good about this and you can leave in that moment as well unfortunately You don't always get what you're hoping for All you get to do is control your behavior around this and how you might choose to leave and how you might actually depart So the choices are there As with all of these things, there's no right answer all the time, but the more you can be active about the choice you want to make, the more likely you are to get what you want.

Charles Good:
Very well said and it's helpful to actively manage that experience, right, for all players. Concerning

Michael Bungay Stanier:
It's

Charles Good:
and

Michael Bungay Stanier:
right.

Charles Good:
not every relationship, as you mentioned, is going to be fantastic, but everyone could, every relationship could be better, especially if you follow,

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah.

Charles Good:
you know, this process and it's really all about the process and getting it to where you feel more comfortable in doing it and practicing with it.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah, and so sometimes that means you need to find another outlet for you to speak to your sadness and anger and frustration about what's going on. I mean, I had a colleague recently who had somebody on her team leave out of the blue and without a lot of style or grace. And I know my colleague was pretty upset about how that departure happened, felt a bit betrayed by it, quite frankly. And I was her... hers as one of her sounding boards around a place to kind of work through that. And to the public, she was very gracious about how she recognized and acknowledged that individual in their departure. So it's like, find a way to work through your stuff, so that you can be the best version of yourself in public if that's what you need.

Charles Good:
Absolutely. Before we end, a couple just final questions, just kind of clarifying how this process really works in different relationships. Will this having Keystone Conversations process work with your supervisor, your boss, someone senior to you?

Michael Bungay Stanier:
It does work with your supervisor and boss. It obviously takes a bigger leap. You know, it's easier to ask people who you lead to go, Hey, let's, you and I work on this together as opposed to going, Hey, let's you and I work on this together. And it's a common reaction that people go, yeah, I could never do it with my boss. They just wouldn't be open to that. But I know as somebody who's been a boss, that if somebody came to me and said, Hey, I'm on your team, I'd love us to work in a brilliant way together. How do we do that? I'd be like, this is great. I am totally up for this. So I guess the encouragement here Charles is to have people say, look, don't just leap to the assumption that your boss is not up for this conversation. They might be delighted by it. And it might be the thing that really differentiates you from other people.

Charles Good:
Well, that's great to hear. I always like to end the podcast with one question on what would be the first thing to start with as they begin this process? Because these conversations, initially, it's going to be awkward, it's going to be uneasy. Is there any advice that you have them to get started and get more committed to the process?

Michael Bungay Stanier:
The place to start is to ask yourself how important are the working relationships you have? How influential are they on your success and your happiness? And that's an immediate crossroad because if you go, they're not that important to me, then you shouldn't have listened to this podcast. You should rewind and see if you can get 45 minutes of your life back. But if you're thinking to yourself, actually, you know what? Relationships are important to me. they do make a difference. Well then the call to action is really, well can you be the person who reaches out and starts this? Because as you said Charles, it's a bit awkward, it's a bit unusual, there's not often a lot of precedent for this. But as somebody once said, you know nobody likes to be the first person to say hello but everybody loves to be greeted. If you can be the person who becomes known for saying I'm investing in building great working relationships. That is a great gift to everybody involved.

Charles Good:
Wonderful. Thank you so much for joining me today, Michael. Remind our listeners how they can get in contact with you, learn more about your work and find that new book.

Michael Bungay Stanier:
Yeah, look, if you want some of the free resources that come with the book, including watching me role model a Keystone conversation, you can find that at bestpossiblerelationship.com. And if you want more about me and the other books and the other courses and other freebies that we have, mbs.works is the website, mbs.works.

Charles Good:
Well, thank you again for joining me today and for everyone else. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Good Leadership Podcast. Remember, it's not what you know, but what you do differently that makes a difference.